While reading Straub's new book "Changed", I ran across a concept I found pretty intriguing.

Revelation 11:2 - But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

Revelation 12:14 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

All three of these verses mention a 3 1/2 year period of "Great Tribulation".

Then we have this:

Daniel 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

The Angel (or Christ), swears by him who lives forever that the time will be 3 1/2 years. If Christ has spoken it, then it cannot change. It must be carried out just as prophecied over and over in scripture.

But we run into a question with this verse:

Mark 13:20 - And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

I have heard many preachers say that the 3 1/2 years will not actually be 3 1/2 years because it will be shortened. But is that what it actually says?
In both Matthew 24 and Mark 13, it says the days will be shortened; Not the length of the time of trial.

Is there scripture that could confirm this?

Revelation 8:12 - And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

According to Straub, the length of the day will be shortened by a third, and the length of the night by a third. If we are to remove two thirds of our day, it would leave us with an eight hour day.

Amos 8:9 - And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Again, confirming a possibility that the actual length of the day will be shortened.

The only way I'm aware of for the day to consist of 8 hours, would be for the rotation of the earth to be affected.

Luke 21:25 - And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Isaiah 13:13 - Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 24:20 - The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


With only a few hours of sunlight each day, and an extremely short night, it would certainly cause much distress and great perplexity.

If something could cause the rotation of the earth to be sped up, that same something could also cause the earth to move from it's current location.

Revelation 16:8 - And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Although the total amount of time will still consist of 42 months, they will go by much more quickly if the day itself is only eight hours long.

I read a new book today and it was magnificent!

I actually read a lot of Christian books, both old and new, and it's rare for me to find one that not only teaches sound doctrine, but does so in an easy to understand fashion and also introduces me to a concept here and there that I'm not familiar with.

This book fits the bill.
The title is "Changed" by Steven Straub.

It is the authors explanation of his Post-Tribulation beliefs, and I not only highly recommend it, but would encourage any believer to give it a chance, regardless of your eschatological views.

You can download a free copy HERE

Revelation 20:4,5 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

When is the first resurrection? It comes at the end of the tribulation. You can't have a resurrection prior to the first resurrection. After the dead are raised, then we are changed. (For we shall not precede those who sleep)

Matthew 24:29-31 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Once again, after the tribulation, Jesus gathers His elect.

II Thessalonians 2:1-4 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And yet again, this gathering does not take place until Antichrist is revealed and sits in the temple of God.
The coming of our Lord and our gathering (rapture) to Him is the same event.

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Corinthians says this "Mystery" is when we are all changed.

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation says this "Mystery" takes place as the seventh angel begins to sound the trumpet.

What did the early church fathers teach in regard to the rapture?


Irenaeus (140-202AD) (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)
“And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."

Didache (50-100AD), Treatise on the Apostles by Early Church Fathers
"then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven."

Polycarp (69-165AD), Student of Apostle John
In addressing The Church about Revelation, “It will not be easy and it will be distinguished by trials, tribulations, and antagonisms…Stay faithful to the point of death and I will give you a crown of life.”

Ignatius (35-110AD), Student of Apostle John
“The promise [kept from the hour of trial]does not imply that the Philadelphian Church should be exempted from persecutions which should come on all other portions of the Church; that by any special privilege they should be excused from fiery trials through which others should have to pass…—to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation. The great catastrophies which come upon the earth are “temptations” to the world no less than to the Church.(Epistle to the church at Philadelphia)
He Wrote “A Dialogue of Comfort Against Tribulation” which was addressed to the churches.
In Magnes 1:2, “In him we will, if we patiently endure all the abuse of the ruler of this age and escape, reach God.”

Papias (70-155AD), Hearer of John/Friend of Polycarp
Wrote “Interpretations of the Sayings of The Lord” stated, “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.” [resurrection of the dead at the end of tribulation]

Justin Martyr (100-168AD),“The First Apology”-Chap.110
"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians”…together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth.”

Cyprian (200-258AD) “Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times, Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Ephraim of Syrus (306-373 AD), Section X
“And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets…the sign of the Son of Man…the Lord shall appear with great power…as the angelic trumpet precedes him…Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!..Then Christ has come and the enemy thrown into confusion…And he will be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 AD) Lecture XV
Hatred of the brethren makes room next for Antichrist; for the devil prepares beforehand the divisions among the people, that he who is to come may be acceptable to them. But God forbid that any of Christ’s servants here, or elsewhere, should run over to the enemy!..The Church now charges thee before the Living God; she declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive. Whether they will happen in thy time we know not, or whether they will happen after thee we know not; but it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself secure beforehand”.

What did Christ teach regarding the Rapture?

Luke 21:8 - And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many will come in my name saying that I am Messiah, and that the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them!

Scripture teaches that there are false prophets in the church and they may speak the truth in many areas. They may be completely sincere ministers and teachers, but they still mislead. There is however a very specific warning that Christ focuses on here. Those who are going to be misleading the church in the end times will proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah and that the time (of His return) draweth near. The "time draweth near" is referring to his promised return for them, just as it does in Matthew 24.

The words for "Draweth near" in the Greek (sunelauno eggidzo) means to be near at hand, and paints the picture that the time of His return is intently imminent, or that it could happen at any moment. Jesus warned His followers, when those who claim to be speaking in the name of Jesus say that his return is imminent, (could happen at any moment) do not follow them.

There are prerequisites to His return, as He proceeds to clarify. He said very boldly that when teachers in the church at the end of the age say that the return of Christ is imminent, do not go after them; Do not follow their teachings. He then tells them that many things will happen that will terrify most people, but that even then, the end is not imminent. He goes on to describe the days of Satan's vengeance that will cause Christ’s followers to be persecuted and killed. He speaks further of the signs in the sun, moon, and stars; The shaking of the powers of the heavens, and in verse 27 He says that after the powers of the heaven are shaken, THEN they will see Him coming in power and great glory.

This “any moment rapture” teaching will cause so-called believers to hate each other and betray each other to the death.

Matthew 24:10 - And then shall many be offended and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

WHY? What terrible traps have been laid for the Christian church?

Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Messiahs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. BEHOLD, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE.

Christ has told us beforehand - He has forewarned us -

Matthew 24:26 - If they shall say unto you, behold! He is in the secret chambers; (tameion) Believe it not!

What is "Tameion"?

Matthew 6:5-6 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Veryily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, (tameion) and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Tameion shows us that which is done deliberately in secret so as not to be seen openly. It is an intentional secret for the purpose of concealing the activity from those who could see if it were done openly.

Tameion can be translated as closet, storehouse, storeroom, inner chamber, or any place that can obscure the actions of one from being observed. Jesus is not saying that false prophets will be saying that He can be found behind a sack of flour or behind your favorite suit in the closet; The false teaching is that He will return to gather us in a secret rapture, unseen by the world.

Luke 12:2,3 - For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed; neither hid that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets (tameion) shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

If false prophets (who may be honest sincere Christians) say "Look, he will return at any time to gather his church in secret", Do not believe it! Christ has forewarned us.

Matthew 24:3 - Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the age? and Jesus answered "Take heed that no man deceive you!"

Jeremiah 14:14,15 - Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.


Common Arguments:

There are some "cute-sie" little statements in the pre-trib camp such as "Jesus wouldn't beat up his bride".

While it sounds like a nice condemning argument, it has nothing to do with scripture. Post trib believers never said anything about Christ beating up His bride.

When the plagues of Egypt hit, God's people were not affected.


1 - First Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not appointed to wrath.

According to scripture, when is the wrath?
Revelation 11:18 - The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth.

In Revelation 6:10,11 at the 5th seal, the martyrs in Heaven ask God when He will judge those on the earth. The Lord responds that they must wait a little while longer.
The wrath of God is also referred to as “The Day of The Lord”.

Acts 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12,17 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood….For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

According to scripture (Revelation 12:12), the mid-point of the final seven years begins the wrath of Satan. (Not the wrath of God)

2 - The Rapture and second coming are two different events.

Acts 3:20,21 - Then wonderful times of refreshment will come from the presence of the Lord, and he will send Jesus your Messiah to you again. For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets.

Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Psalm 110:1 - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Matt. 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, Acts 2:34, Hebrews 1:13)

3 - The tribulation is for unbelievers including Jews, not Christians.

Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Ephesians 2:14 - For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people.

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mark 13:37 - And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Romans 11:7 - What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

4 - Doesn’t Revelation 19:14 say that we return with Christ on horses to battle with Him?

Matthew 13:41 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

II Thessalonians 1:7,8 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mark 8:38 - Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

5- What about imminence?

The disciples were told to tarry in Jerusalem until Holy Spirit came. They did not expect an “any moment rapture”; They expected Holy Spirit to come. Jesus appeared to Paul and told him that he would preach in Rome. Did Paul expect to preach in Rome, or did he expect to be raptured any minute now? Jesus told Peter that he would die an old man. Did Peter expect to die of old age like Jesus said, or be raptured? Jesus said the church in Smyrna would suffer persecution ten days. From the time Christ ascended until the end of the first century, no one expected a rapture.

6 - The Church isn’t mentioned after Revelation 4 because it was raptured.

If we use the same argument, we would have to exclude Mark, Luke, John, Second Peter, First and Second John, and Jude as well, because the "church" isn't mentioned at all in those books.

Many of the readers of this blog believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
While I may agree with these brothers and sisters in Christ on 99% of all other doctrine, I cannot agree on a pre-trib view.

Those that have been following for any length of time are aware that I have spent literally thousands of hours pouring over every book, article, blog and commentary I can get my hands on that teaches ANY rapture view.

I wrote earlier about “Brother D” and his blog (It is a good site – I’m not condemning here) but I wanted to respond again today on one of his recent articles. Again, Brother D’s original comments are in Bold:

Psalm 32:6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.

7You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble;You surround me with songs of deliverance.

Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him? Luke 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Flood of great waters? As it was in the days of Noah? Flood will not reach him? Are you picking up on this?

You would have to be blind or willfully ignorant to not see how rich just these two sentences are in one Psalm in the bible. In a "flood" of great waters? They will not reach him? Hiding place? You preserve me from trouble? You surround me with songs of deliverance? Gosh, that sounds really "escapist" , doesn't it?

I would respond with a resounding YES! It does sound very “escapist”. And that is precisely what the Lord has promised. However, the “Harpazo” or “Rapture” is never mentioned here.

Just when is this “flood of great waters”?

Revelation 12:14-17 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The “Time, times, and half a time” is the 42 month reign of Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.

The woman is the church who goes into a place of hiding (protected and fed by God) during this time. The antichrist then makes war with those who “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”. These are CHRISTIANS.

They are here on the earth at this time. For whatever reason, they did not go to a place of protection and were in the middle of a war with antichrist.

Perhaps they chose to stay and fight, maybe they didn’t want to leave their homes and friends (remember Lot’s wife), but scripture tells us the end result for those that do not leave is that many are killed, and the antichrist is mostly triumphant over them.

If we are going to use Old Testament to teach on the rapture, why not go to the oldest book in the bible and see what Job had to say about it:

Job 14:12-15 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.

Job realized that once he died, his body would remain in the grave until the very end. He was appointed a set time where his body would come out of the grave and be changed! God would call, and Job would answer by coming out of the grave.

I Thessalonians 4:15-18 - For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Again, we can go to the old testament book of Joel:
Joel 2:16 - Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

This “Closet” refers to a place of hiding. When the Lord returns, the church then comes out of her place of protection and is gathered by Christ.

Yes, there is an escape, yes the Lord will protect His own. Everyone all throughout scripture that had troubles, trials and tribulations remained here protected by God through them.

Jesus Himself said:
John 17:15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

This chart represents a basic overview of the Post-Trib View.
Sometimes visuals help us conceptualize what words fail to convey.



Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12-14,17 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Immediately after the 70th week, the sixth seal takes place.
Since the fifth trumpet is five months in duration, that leaves no time for the trumpets and bowls after the 70th week. They take place at some point during that time.


1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51,52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Job was one of those prophets that understood that he would die and his body would not rise until the heavens departed like a scroll. He also understood that there was an appointed (or set) time for the resurrection and that his body would be changed.

Job 14:12-14 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Notice after the sixth seal is complete:
Revelation 6:17 - For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then after the seventh seal:
Revelation 8:5 - And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

And after the seventh trump:
Revelation 11:15,18,19 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And the seventh bowl:
Revelation 16:18 - And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

Christ returns after the sixth seal. After the sixth trump, we read:

Revelation 10:1-7 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I won't take the time to go into all the detail here, but this is Christ's second coming. It says He lifted His hand to heaven and swore that this time period has run its course.

Daniel 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

So once the final 3 1/2 years are complete, Christ returns, gathers His elect, pours out His wrath at Armageddon, and we accompany Him to the earth, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many of the readers here are familiar with “Brother D” and his blog.
I have been a regular reader and enjoy his insight. One thing we don't agree on is rapture timing. He recently wrote a short post that I wanted to respond to, but comments are not open on his site so I will post my comments here.

Please understand the spirit in which this is written. I am not “arguing” with anyone, or attempting to “stir the pot”. I simply wanted to include an alternate understanding to what he has written.

His original wording is in bold, with my response following.


When did the flood come in Noah's day? After Noah and his family went into the ark.

When did fire and brimstone rain down on sodom? After Lot and his family left the city.

Correct. However, just as in every other story of tribulation in the old testament, no one left the tribulation, trials, or destruction. They were protected through it. (John 17:15)

Something else the Lord gave me about the pre-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is the only position on the rapture that conforms to the idea that we need not write to you of times and dates:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 ... Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you

Incorrect. If we continue reading, we find WHY there was no need to write about times and dates:

1 Thessalonians 5:2,4 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

They knew perfectly when Christ would return. It’s even recorded when He returns “as a thief”.

Revelation 16:15,16 - Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The unbelievers are gathered together at Armageddon, the believers are then gathered in the rapture, and the final wrath is poured out on the unbelieving world.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Why do we not need to write about times and dates as believers in a pre-trib rapture? Because we are looking for our Lord to show up every single day, any single day

This idea of an “any moment rapture” is not found in scripture. The disciples were told to tarry in Jerusalem until Holy Spirit came. They did not expect an “any moment rapture”; They expected Holy Spirit to come. Jesus appeared to Paul and told him that he would preach in Rome. Jesus told Peter that he would die an old man. Jesus said the church in Smyrna would suffer persecution ten days. From the time Christ ascended until the end of the first century, no one expected a rapture.

The "other tribbers" preach a message of partial or no escape. The bible on the other hand clearly teaches that there is an escape from ALL coming (Luke 21:36). Luke 21:36 does not stand on its own, facts throughout the bible support the idea of "escape from all." Just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot, so shall it be in at the coming of the Son of man. Could he be any clearer? Noah, escaped ALL of the flood. Lot escaped ALL of the fire and brimstone, and some of us will escape ALL of what's about to happen. That's a 100% certified FACT straight from the Word of God.

I agree whole heartedly that some will be counted worthy to escape all. However, no one is ever promised a removal from the situation, but protection through it.

Again, I emphasize that there are other ways of understanding these scriptures, and this is how I understand them. I share these views in hopes that others will study on their own and ask the Lord to reveal to them the truth of His Word.

This is the best debate I have ever seen regarding rapture timing.

There is no winner, nor is there favoritism. The two views offered are Pre-tribulation rapture and Post-tribulation rapture.

Each view is covered very thoroughly, and regardless of which view you hold, you will probably learn something you haven't heard before.

It was recently suggested to me that I read Peter Goodgame’s study entitled “Perfecting the pre-trib rapture”.

I have read Goodgame’s articles and book “Red Moon Rising”, and must admit that I agree wholeheartedly with his understanding of the rapture taking place around the time of the sixth seal.

Where I must part ways with His exegesis however, is in the sequence of events he has laid out in his study.

Goodgame stated: “Berner concludes, and I wholeheartedly agree, that the 70th Week of Daniel will probably not even begin until after the fourth Trumpet judgment of Revelation.”

With a rapture occurring at the sixth seal, and the 70th week beginning after the fourth trumpet, this would mean that prior to the rapture, the white horse has gone out to conquer, the red horse has taken peace from the earth, the black horse has brought famine to the world, the pale/green horse has introduced disease on a massive scale, Hail fire and blood have fallen on the earth, a mountain of fire falls in the sea and 1/3 of all sea life has died, the rivers of the world are made bitter and man cannot drink from them, and the sun, moon and stars are darkened by a third.

Whew!

That certainly sounds like a horrible time. I certainly see no reason to continue holding on to a “pre-trib” belief if all of this is going to take place prior to the rapture of the church.

At the fifth trumpet (Where Goodgame suggests the 70th week begins), the locusts are released to torment men for five months. Revelation 9:4 states “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

Goodgame has suggested that the 144,000 are sealed after the rapture and the rapture takes place at the sixth seal. But the fifth trumpet is five months in duration (Rev. 9:5), followed by the gathering of the armies to Armageddon. I cannot reconcile a five month locust invasion, followed by the armies of the world taking six years and seven months to gather for Armageddon.

Matthew 24:29 says “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

This can be seen during the events of the sixth seal. The sixth seal must take place “Immediately after the tribulation” just as Jesus said.

In Revelation 6:17, it says at the end of the sixth seal “For the great day of his wrath is come”.

According to I Thessalonians 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath”. So once the 70th week comes to a close, the sixth seal takes place, the 7th trumpet sounds, and the wrath of God begins.

How do we know the rapture takes place at this 7th trumpet?

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is this mystery, and when was it declared?

I Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the mystery of God (when we are all changed) is finished.

I Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There are no other “last trumps” in scripture. God is not the author of confusion.

So the dead are raised, anyone left alive will be changed, and will meet the Lord in the air.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John explains that he sees those who were beheaded for not worshipping the beast, his image, or for taking his mark. They lived and reigned with Christ. There is no arguing that this describes Christians who were alive during the reign of antichrist.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Those that lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years took part in the FIRST resurrection. If this is the first resurrection, that means there were no resurrections prior to it. The first resurrection takes place after the antichrist shows up, enforces his mark, and makes war with the saints of God. (Dan.7:21, Rev.13:7)

Mark 13:14 - But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Saints of God, we will be here to see this!

Now back to the wrath of God that takes place after the sixth seal, seventh trump rapture:

Isaiah 13:9, Joel 2:1, and Zechariah 4:1 each make the statement that “The Day of the Lord Cometh” and immediately goes on to describe the battle of Armageddon. Zech. 14:7 and Isaiah 17:14 each state that Armageddon (The Wrath of God) will last one literal day.

Now back to Goodgame’s study.

He states: “The Pre-Wrath view crumbles in the face of Revelation 11:14, which clearly places the midpoint of the 70th Week three-and-a-half days prior to the end of the sixth Trumpet judgment.”

This statement is made with a misunderstanding of the timing of the two witnesses. IF the two witnesses are here during the first half of the 70th week, Goodgame is correct in this point. IF however, they are ministering during the last half of the 70th week, he would be incorrect on this point.

Instead of going into a detailed explanation on the timing of the two witnesses here, I would encourage you to read the first page of the chapter “Timing of Daniel’s 70th Week” in the study I have offered here.

In conclusion, I agree with Goodgame on the timing of the rapture being after the sixth seal is opened. I have recommended his book in the past and will continue to do so. It is a great study.

The difference comes not in the placement of the rapture, but in the chronology of events as laid out in Revelation.

Revelation 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Keep - (Strongs G5083 "tēreō")
1) to attend to carefully, take care of

a) to guard

b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

c) to observe

d) to reserve: to undergo something


John 17:15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tēreō)them from the evil.

I didn't realize until today that Herb Peters had "left the camp" prior to leaving this world.

His original article quoted below can be found here:
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/original/outside_the_camp.html


One of the hardest things I have done was to leave the pre-trib camp. I knew that if I did, I would become an outcast to the very people whom I most needed to get my message out and wanted to reach. Yet, I also knew that God didn't reveal the information I had stumbled on to any of them. That being the case, I was willing to go outside the camp.

Today things are different. Many are using the information that we've been reporting. Most, however, usually for sincerely held doctrinal reasons, are unwilling to join us outside the camp. As a result, I believe the full implications of the events now occurring are being compromised. And, God's people continue sleeping in the dark.

Yet, that's the situation Jesus describes. In the time of His coming, Jesus says it will take a shout to wake us from our sleep (Matt. 25:6). But, as I see that day approaching, my concern is for the unprepared -- those who think they have oil enough to face what's coming, and they don't.

It's my belief, based on my understanding of the Bible and world events, we could soon find ourselves in the Great Tribulation. And, according to Jesus, at that time many of our shepherds may suddenly flee. If so, it will be up to us to spiritually fend for ourselves. And, for many weak believers, knowing the truth about the situation may be vital.

I had an email waiting this morning. It was from a friend who wanted to know how I saw the Great Tribulation fitting into the 70th week of Daniel. In other words, how do I see the events unfolding from my perspective outside the camp.

According to Jesus, the Great Tribulation will be a time of unprecedented persecution by the antichrist and his 10 kings. And, although the antichrist will be given authority to wage his war against God's people for 3 1/2 years, Jesus tells us -- for the sake of His elect -- He will cut short that 3 1/2 year period (Matt. 24:22).

When we factor in the related prophecies, and when we look at today's actual geopolitical situation, we see an amazing match. As far as the prophecies are concerned, if you recall, Jesus told the angel of one church, because, among other things, they have a little power, He has placed before them an open door that no one can close (Rev. 3:8) . He also told this church that they would be kept from the persecution of the antichrist (Rev. 3:10). In Daniel we read about an angel asking, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" And the answer is: "... it would be for a time, times, and half a time (3 1/3 years); and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed (Daniel 12:6-7).

It's my belief, just as the antichrist is about to finish off the last pockets of God's people, that's when Jesus will cut short the antichrist's 3 1/2 year war and rapture His saints. And, in the remaining part of the 3 1/2 year period, that's when Jesus will pour out His wrath on the antichrist, the false prophet and their followers. This is also when mystery Babylon will be destroyed and Armageddon will occur.

Now, looking at things geopolitically, that's the picture I see forming. The US and the EU have entered into a strategic partnership in order to create a new international order out of the UN and NATO. Included in their plans is a reorganized UN that includes new religious, economic and enforcement elements. The target date for the new international system to be up and running is 2010. The idea is to first implement their security measures over the Euro-Mediterranean region in order to bring peace to the Middle East. If successful, the plan is to progressively extend it globally. Included in all this is the UN's Alliance of Civilizations, which I believe, could be the place from where the antichrist and false prophet wage their war against the saints.

As I was saying, when we factor in all the related prophecies, and when we look at today's geopolitical situation, I believe we may have a match. I also know that there are other prophecy teachers who see things very differently.

But, that's how things look from here -- outside the camp.

The Following article comes from:
http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOHHeisComing/2010/04


As world events seem to be becoming more violent, financially desperate, and lawless, and with the Earth groaning with increases in tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, many may be wondering if the world they know is coming to an end. Different civilizations have different traditions and myths regarding the end of the world. The Mayans developed a calendar that ran for thousands of years and it culminates cataclysmically in 2012. Anyone who believes in some form of apocalypse knows that the earth is not going be a safe place during any such event. People will hope there is a magic button that will save them from end-time events so no disaster happens to them. In fact, there are many that think such a button actually exists.

In Christianity, a theory has arisen and gained popularity because it gives the last generation of Christians an escape clause - it is called the Pretribulation Rapture and is the belief that the Messiah returns suddenly (imminently) to gather all of the church saints to avoid the seven-year tribulation. This theory is relatively recent in terms of Biblical history. It comes from a Scottish minister named Edward Irving in the early 1800s. He was influenced by observing a young girl who fell into a trance and pronounced that Christ’s return would happen in two parts, not one, and His first appearance would be visible only to the righteous. Edward Irving started to teach his congregants this message. Another man, John Darby, heard of Irving’s teaching and he started to develop it further. Cyrus Scofield popularized the theory in his notes in his Scofield Reference Bible in America in the early 1900s. Today, it is commonly referred to in the shortened form as simply the Pretrib rapture.

If you visit a Christian bookstore and scan the prophecy section, the majority of the books on the shelves address the point of view of a Pretrib rapture. Most Christians believe what their pastors teach and don’t search the Scriptures (especially the Torah) to learn for themselves. Other points of view concerning the timing of the resurrection and rapture don’t sell very well. Who wants to hear different arguments among prophecy teachers, or worse, that believers will have to endure the Great Tribulation?

It should not come as a shock to readers of YAVOH that I do not teach nor hold to the theory of the Pretrib rapture. I believe that the rapture (translation of the believers alive at the time of the resurrection) includes the tribulation saints; therefore, I believe the timing of the rapture is in the days immediately after the tribulation but prior to the Day of the Lord (God’s wrath upon this world). I believe that the rapture/resurrection will be the fulfillment of a future Feast of Trumpets. However, some New Covenant brethren believe the rapture will happen before the Great Tribulation, I think that their idea of the rapture is simply out of order.

In recent articles (February and March 2010), I shared about the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 weeks and the key events that begin the final seven years of this age. These prophecies are what Yeshua used in order to answer the disciples’ questions about the end of the age and the signs of His coming. The final seven years leading to the end are the difference between the 62 years following the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem with plaza and moat. The specific events that separate the 62 years from the final seven years are three things: (1) an agreement involving Israel and many nations (the antimessiah confirms this agreement), (2) a regional war where God slaughters the enemies of Israel (Israel dwells securely in the land) then detailed burial procedures, and (3) the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon Israel and all mankind. With these three things we have confirmation in counting Daniel’s final 70 years accurately. We will also know that we are at the final seven years of Daniel’s count. Therefore this spring/summer of 2010 is of profound significance for all of us given that 62 years from the decree will be completed this May 2010.

So, why am I bringing up the Pretrib rapture at this point? If the final seven-year countdown begins in spring/summer of this year, then the Pretrib rapture will be proven to be a false expectation for end-time believers. This is going to be hard for many brethren to deal with. Many evangelical leaders and believers have pinned all of their hopes on this eschatology theory and will be confronted with this dilemma:

Many of the most influential nationally known Christian leaders and their ministries are on public record promoting and defending the Pretrib rapture (the sudden transformation and removal of believers from the present world prior to the final seven years).

In addition, what will Pretrib book publishers and teachers do after the seven years begin without a rapture? What will they say after the agreement spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is accomplished? What will they do when the regional war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 results in the seven years of burning the weapons of war? How will they explain the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or the House of Israel making their way to the land of Israel and God being sanctified before the nations?

I believe that there are four distinct directions that the Pretrib teachers will go.

1. They will deny that the final seven years has begun. They will claim that the agreement is not the specific agreement fulfilling Daniel 9:27.
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week [the final seven years], but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
Daniel 9:27

2. They will classify the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s war in chapter 38 and 39 as another in a long line of military conflicts of Israel’s history but not a part of the final seven years.

3. They will deny the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as another “spiritualized” movement as we have seen in recent revivals, which have all fallen short.

4. They will assure those who have followed their teaching that they will “have peace” and “no calamity will come upon them.” They will maintain that the rapture must happen before the final seven years can happen.

These teachers will face a major problem. Believers who follow their teaching will see too many things happening and realize that the theory of the Pretrib rapture was wrong. Many of them regrettably will give up the faith and refuse to listen any longer to any prophecy teacher.

In the final days, the “false prophets” Yeshua warned us about will be revealed. As disturbing as that may sound, look again to what Yeshua said of the days we live and how false prophets would “mislead, if possible, even the elect.” Yeshua mentioned several aspects in answering the brethren about the signs of the end of the ages. He talked about things that He said are NOT signs of the end but are the beginnings of sorrows (times of great stress on mankind), including wars, famines, earthquakes, and diseases. He spoke directly to specific prophecies by the prophet Daniel that were key to a proper understanding of identifying the final seven years and the final 3½-year Great Tribulation.

Finally, he addressed the subject of false prophets and false messiahs. He said of the latter that they would be so prolific that the elect (the believers) would almost be deceived.
Then if anyone says to you, “Behold, here is the messiah,” or “There He is,” do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:23-24

Consider this thought for a moment. If this warning of Yeshua is correct in the final generation, then the false messages and false brethren most likely come from the ranks of believers at the end of the ages, most likely Christians among Christians, and probably be in teaching and leadership positions. Today, the predominant evangelical message of the end of the ages is the Pretrib rapture. Many of the public evangelical messengers espouse the Pretrib rapture. Yeshua warned us about these who have the influence to possibly mislead the elect (believers).

The message of the Pretrib rapture is the most compelling evidence that indicts these teachers. The prophet Jeremiah speaks of false prophets at the end of the ages. Here is what he had to say about their message.
Thus says the Lord of hosts, “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; they speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The Lord has said, “You will have peace’; and as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, they say, “Calamity will not come upon you.”’ But who has stood in the council of the Lord, that he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened? Behold, the storm of the Lord has gone forth in wrath, even a whirling tempest; it will swirl down on the head of the wicked. The anger of the Lord will not turn back until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart; in the last days you will clearly understand it.”
Jeremiah 23:16-20

The Pretrib rapture is futility. Look at it like a stopped watch; it will tell the correct time twice a day but it is not a working watch. The Pretrib rapture is based on the doctrine of imminency—that God is so sovereign that He can return at any moment of His choosing. No one disputes that God is sovereign; however, God has said of Himself that He does not do impulsive things like a man, nor does He change His mind. God has clearly said that He has a definite plan for the end of the ages and that He will do exactly what He has planned.
Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, “My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure”;calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.
Isaiah 46:8-11

God has said that the end of ages will include a specific seven-year period. In the middle of the seven the Abomination of Desolation will come and the resulting Great Tribulation. In days immediately following the tribulation, the Messiah will appear in the sky and return to judge the earth. That is what is going to happen. Any suggestion or teaching to the contrary falls into the category of a false teaching.

Look back again to Jeremiah’s word about false prophets and teachers. They have two messages for the people.
They keep saying to those who despise Me, The Lord has said, “You will have peace”; and as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, they say, “Calamity will not come upon you.”
Jeremiah 23:17

The message of the Pretrib rapture is that the church will have peace; no tribulation will come upon the church. Whenever a believer of the Pretrib rapture hears a teaching of the tribulation, they summarily dismiss it because they believe they won’t be there (they will have been raptured first). Somehow the logic of the Bible escapes them. Why would God have told us about the tribulation if we have nothing to do with it? It goes to the very nature of the people who believe in the Pretrib rapture. They despise God and have stubborn hearts. This is what Jeremiah says.

Many years ago, I was arguing with a Baptist pastor about the timing of the rapture. He strongly held to the Pretrib rapture. No matter how I approached the subject, no matter what Scripture that he or I used, he refused to budge at all on his conclusion. It seemed futile to continue the discussion so I concluded with a final question.

“If you were to see the prophesied events of start of the Great Tribulation (the middle of the seven years) and fully realized that you were now in the Great Tribulation, what would you do?” I expected him to say that he would adjust his beliefs and still look for the Lord’s return. Instead, he shocked me and said that he would give up the faith!

I immediately asked why. He answered that he did not want to believe in any God that would make him or his family go through the Great Tribulation.

It is as Jeremiah said, deep down they despise God and are stubborn in their hearts. By the way, I don’t believe that fellow believers like him will go through the tribulation. That kind of stubborn heart will get them killed early in the Great Tribulation.

Jeremiah is not the only one who describes false prophets to us. Yeshua warned us about them this way.
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20

Wolves are not good for the flock;in fact, they are dangerous to the flock. Maybe this is why they over-assert that the brethren will have peace and that no calamity will come upon them. They have to say this again and again. The real test and determinant is the resulting fruit. Yeshua draws a direct comparison between the tree itself and the fruit.

Messianic believers know that the good tree referred to by Yeshua is the Torah. Those who take hold of the Torah look to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They look to the God who spoke from Mount Sinai and follow the instructions of righteousness given to Moses. They believe in the prophets of Israel and the Messiah King. The Torah leads us to the Messiah and the blessings of the kingdom.

Pretrib teachers and followers do not hold to the Torah. They skip past that part of the Bible and race to their own conclusions of who they are and what God will do for them. As a result, they produce a much different fruit from that of the Torah. Let me share a couple of examples of what I mean.

There are two Scriptures that dominate the subject of the rapture.
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
I Corinthians 15:51-52
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18

Neither of these Scriptures speaks of a seven-year period or how the resurrection and the rapture occur prior to the last seven years. The conclusion that the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation is a theoretic judgment about who they think the church is and that God will never judge the church. “Judgment is something that happens to Jews, Israel, and the rest of the world; but it won’t happen to us, the church.” Never mind that the Apostle Peter says that judgment come first on the household of faith prior to the day of reckoning for the world.

Pretrib teachers say that there is no clue about the timing of the rapture in these two passages of Scriptures. They are wrong.

These two Scriptures say that the rapture occurs concurrently with the resurrection of the saints. It says that the rapture occurs when the Messiah descends from heaven, when the archangels give a shout, and when the last trumpet is sounded. Now this is the part where knowing the Torah is critical.

The Torah teaches us the great plan of the Messiah’s first coming and His second coming. It is laid out for us in the Appointed Times and God’s festivals.

The Messiah has already fulfilled the feasts that typify the work of redemption: Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of First Fruits in the spring. We are still looking for the Messiah to fulfill the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles in a future fall. The trumpet of God is the trumpet referred to in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. God doesn’t come at any moment of His choosing. He has a plan and He will come in the late summer/early fall just like the Feast of Trumpets does.

If you do not keep the Feasts of the Lord and you are not familiar with the sounding of shofars, then it is easy to ignore what those two passages are really saying.

The emphasis of these passages is to explain that those who are alive and are raptured will not precede the resurrection of the saints. The emphasis is to show that the rapture is part of the resurrection (the gathering of all His saints for His triumphant return to Jerusalem).

If you really want to see the Scriptures which explain the timing of this in relation to the tribulation, then find those Scriptures talking about the resurrection and the timing of the gathering of God’s saints. For example, the following is an excellent passage from the Messiah answering this very question.
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

There is no question about the timing of the resurrection as being in the days immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation. It also says that a great trumpet is sounded. This could well be the LAST Trumpet. Logic would say that any trumpet sounded before this would not be the LAST one since this is sounded after the tribulation.

The Torah teaches us about the Day of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). It’s important to learn what the significance of using trumpets is. If you don’t study the Torah the significance is lost. When the LAST trumpet is mentioned to Pretrib teachers, it is sad to see how they dispute and ignore the Scripture and its meaning. It is the same disputing when they are confronted with the Scripture’s logic of the FIRST resurrection.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand;and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6

This is another passage describing events after the tribulation. It says that the tribulation saints—those who did not worship the beast or his image, those who did not take the mark in their forehead or hand, and those who lost their lives resisting, were resurrected and lived with the Messiah in His 1,000 year age. It clearly and without equivocation says that this is the FIRST resurrection. Pretrib teachers say there is another resurrection before the FIRST one.

These same tribulation saints are shown to us in Revelation chapter 7.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Revelation 7:9
And one of the elders answered, saying to me, “these who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?” And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes.
Revelation 7:13-17

Did you notice that these saints are holding palm branches? Those who hold to the Torah know that this is the preparation for keeping the Feast of Tabernacles when we make temporary dwelling places (Sukkot) using palm branches to make the roofs.

I have heard Pretrib teachers try to explain away these passages and their description assigning them to others, not the church. They say this is another group of believers separate from the church (who were raptured earlier).

Why do they twist the Scriptures and add other explanations saying the Bible cannot explain it properly? These teachers have not studied Torah and the Prophets. The Pretrib rapture theory is exactly that - it is a theory and not the truth. The simple truths of Torah lead us to understand the events of the end. Trying to explain end-time events without understanding Torah leads to nonsense and error. It also causes one to say the opposite of what the Scripture says, that the last trumpet is really the first and the first resurrection is really the last. Maybe this is why the elect are almost deceived but not quite.

So, let’s consider the near future. What if the final seven years becomes clear to all the believers this spring/summer of 2010 and God pours out His Spirit and literally everyone is able to not only understand but also to prophesy? What will the Pretrib teachers and followers do if they remain defiant against God’s plan?

I fear two things. One, they will be a part of the great falling away of faith as the Baptist pastor said to me and, two, they will turn against other believers who don’t agree with them. They will ultimately hate the tribulation saints. Maybe this is why Yeshua said this:
And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness (Torah-less-ness) is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matthew 24:10-12

When the final seven years become visible to all the brethren and they look around realizing the Pretrib rapture didn’t happen (they are still here), it will become obvious who the false teachers of our days are. It will shake the hearts of all believers as we prepare for the final years of this age.

The Messiah is not coming back to the church and Rome. He is coming back to Israel and Jerusalem. He is not coming to a New Testament Bible study; He is coming to teach the Torah.
Now it will come about that in the last days, the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.
Isaiah 2:2-4

In those days, the deception of the Pretrib rapture will not be remembered anymore. Those who survive to the end will be purified and ready for the Kingdom with no thought of escaping the future. When they see the Messiah returning on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, they will know that all is in order.

Below are a few quotes regarding the understanding of Rapture timing according to some of the earliest known teachers.

Irenaeus (140-202AD) (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)
“And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."
[He gives reference to Rev. 17:15-18, where the “great prostitute” or “Babylon” is destroyed followed by Antichrist’s reign.]

Irenaeus "And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the word of God, and set on fire [ for purification ] they
may be fitted for the royal banquet".

Didache (50-100AD), Treatise on the Apostles by Early Church Fathers
"then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Chapter 16-Rapture/2nd Coming after Antichrist)

Polycarp (69-165AD), Student of Apostle John
In addressing The Church about Revelation, “It will not be easy and it will be distinguished by trials, tribulations, and antagonisms…Stay faithful to the point of death and I will give you a crown of life.” (Epistle to Philippians-only writing)

Ignatius (35-110AD), Student of Apostle John
“The promise [kept from the hour of trial]does not imply that the Philadelphian Church should be exempted from persecutions which should come on all other portions of the Church; that by any special privilege they should be excused from fiery trials through which others should have to pass…—to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation. The great catastrophies which come upon the earth are “temptations” to the world no less than to the Church.(Epistle to the church at Philadelphia)
He Wrote “A Dialogue of Comfort Against Tribulation” which was addressed to the churches.
In Magnes 1:2, “In him we will, if we patiently endure all the abuse of the ruler of this age and escape, reach God.”

Papias (70-155AD), Hearer of John/Friend of Polycarp
Wrote “Interpretations of the Sayings of The Lord” stated, “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth.” [resurrection of the dead at the end of tribulation]

The Epistle of Barnabus (90-100 AD)
Barnabas 4:3, “The last offence is at hand, concerning which the scripture speaketh, as Enoch saith. For to this end the Master hath cut the seasons and the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His inheritance.”(not years-see Matt. 24:22)
Barnabas 7:11, “But what meaneth it, that they place the wool in the midst of the thorns? It is a type of Jesus set forth for the Church, since whosoever should desire to take away the scarlet wool it behoved him to suffer many things owing to the terrible nature of the thorn, and through affliction to win the mastery over it. Thus, He saith, they that desire to see Me, and to attain unto My kingdom, must lay hold on Me through tribulation and affliction.”

First Epistle of Clement (95 AD)
All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ… until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (1 Clem. 50:3-4- rapture after tribulation wrath.)

The Shepherd of Hermes (?88-170 AD)
You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand steadfast, therefore, you who work righteousness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy you who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall deny not their own life. (Vision II-Chapter 2)

Tertullian (155-222 AD), (On the Resurrection of the Flesh)
“the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God…The blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be obtained; then again, after the consignment of him to the fire, that the judgment of the final and universal resurrection may be determined out of the books.”

Justin Martyr (100-168AD),“The First Apology”-Chap.110
"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians”…together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth.”

Cyprian (200-258AD)
"The Lord hath foretold that these things would come. With the exhortation of His forseeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come. He previously warned us that the adversary would increase more and more in the last times." (Treatise 7)

"For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... “The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…” (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2

“Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times, Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (269-271AD), Commentary- The Apocalypse
"He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church

Hippolytus (160-240AD),Treatise on Christ and Antichrist
“the one thousand two hundred and three score days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church …what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope”.

Ephraim of Syrus (306-373 AD), Section X
“And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets…the sign of the Son of Man…the Lord shall appear with great power…as the angelic trumpet precedes him…Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!..Then Christ has come and the enemy thrown into confusion…And he will be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 AD) Lecture XV
Hatred of the brethren makes room next for Antichrist; for the devil prepares beforehand the divisions among the people, that he who is to come may be acceptable to them. But God forbid that any of Christ’s servants here, or elsewhere, should run over to the enemy!..The Church now charges thee before the Living God; she declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive. Whether they will happen in thy time we know not, or whether they will happen after thee we know not; but it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself secure beforehand”.

Martin Luther (1483-1546AD) Works of Martin Luther
"The book of Revelation is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church"
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591AD)
Believed that the second coming of Christ would come to rescue the Tribulation Church 45 days prior to the end of the tribulation period and then The Church would return with Christ at the very end of tribulation.

The Works of Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758 AD) Vol. II
“It is manifest that that is a time of trouble and great trial to the church and people of God, and that it is the same people that is first in this trouble, that, through Michael’s standing up for and appearing for them in their distress, shall be delivered out of trouble; as it is often spoken of in Scripture as God’s manner of dealing with his people, first to bring them into great distress, and then to appear or stand up for them in their extremity, and deliver them….the church; therefore for the elect’s sake God will take out many of those days for respite; so that the days of actual tribulation shall be much fewer than this whole period…The church’s sufferings properly follow Christ’s sufferings, as the church’s glory follows his; the church bears the cross after Christ, and so follows him to the crown; it is made conformable to his resurrection”.

Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892 AD) on Luke 21:25-28
"Lift up your heads." The time for you to hang your heads, like bulrushes, is over already, and will certainly be nigh. Wherefore, "look up, and lift up your heads-The great tribulation by Antichrist…First, then here is a terrible time . . .a time of fearful national trouble. When the Lord Jesus shall come, the heavens shall tell us: 'There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars.'

William Ethelbert (1837-1913 AD) “Peoples of the earth”-commentary on chapter 2-3 on Revelation.
Regarding Church of Ephesus in Rev. 2:5, “and do the first works; otherwise, I am coming to thee, quickly, and will remove thy lamp-stand out of its place, except thou repent”. “He had come before, at His first Advent, seeking fruit. But He found it not. Now He is coming again, and the cry goes forth once more, ‘Repent’…Those who are addressed here will be living in the days of the Beast, in the midst of the great Tribulations and there will be those who will "endure unto the end."




It seems that if Jesus wanted us to realize this as the rapture, He would have said “as it was in the days of Enoch, for he walked with God and was not”. But He didn’t. He said it would be as the days of Noah and Lot.

This post is in response to an excellent question I received from MA~ found here:
http://kingdomstudies.blogspot.com/2009/07/apantesis.html


There is no doubt that both Jude and Revelation mention the fact that Christ returns with His saints.

The word “Saints” is indicative of one who has received salvation, so the saints cannot be angels. Angels are not in need of salvation, so these saints must be Christians.

Now let’s look at these verses:

Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I Thessalonians 4:16,17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Corinthians 15:51,52 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What I see here is that Christ returns with his army of angels, who gather His elect (the saints) who meet (Apantesis) Christ in the air, and escort him to his original destination which is Israel.

This takes place as the last trump begins to sound, and just as Corinthians mentions the rapture as being a mystery, Revelation says that at the beginning of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the mystery is finished. (Rapture has now occurred).

So there are two groups involved here.
The Angels in Heaven who come with Christ, and the saints who meet Him in the air, and go with him to the earth.

And as always, I appreciate any responses or correction.

Apantēsis (Strongs Greek 529) Is a technical term that refers specifically to the practice of sending a delegation outside the city walls and gates to receive a dignitary who was coming. This was the practice when a king and his army were returning from war. All the people would pour forth from the city gates and welcome them with pomp and circumstance. The people would meet them outside and then usher them back into the city with shouts of joy and acclamation.

W.E. Vines says “It is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary"

I would like to look at every instance this word is used in scripture (which is only 3 places):

Matthew 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6 -And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:10 - And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

We can note three things about this word "meet" (apantesis)

1 - The bridegroom is going to the marriage feast.
2 - The virgins go out to meet him.
3 - They continue on to the marriage feast, the original destination.

The bridegroom certainly does not fetch them from where they are waiting and whisk them off to some far away location. Rather, while the foolish virgins are away buying more oil, the bridegroom comes and enters into the marriage feast with the five wise virgins. The foolish virgins return to their original location to find the door already shut.

Acts 28:15,16 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.


Again, we note three things:
1 - Paul is traveling toward the city of Rome.
2 - The brethren meet him.
3 - Paul and the brethren continue on into Rome, the original destination.


I Thessalonians 4:16,17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This does not say anything about the Lord returning, then reversing direction and heading back to Heaven.
Verse 17 says “And so shall we ever be with the Lord”. We can’t follow Christ back to Heaven and “Ever be with the Lord” when He isn’t going to be there forever.
He’s setting up His kingdom here on earth!

When the dignitary approached a city, the elders of the city would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city. In no case does the one being met reverse direction and return the way he came. On the contrary, it is the people meeting the dignitary who change direction.

Once again, we note three things:
1 - The Lord descends from heaven [toward Earth].
2 - After the dead rise first, we who are alive go to meet him in the air.
3 - We accompany the Lord back to Earth, which he was originally approaching


Based upon this (among other things I’ve already mentioned in the book), I am persuaded to believe that the return of Christ and the rapture of the church take place simultaneously.

Someone was asking me today where certain beliefs about the end times come from.

Although I have done my best to put together a coherent timeline, There are others who have come up with similar time lines using either the same methods, or different methods and scripture altogether.

The following is a list of websites I'm familiar with that have come to the conclusion that sometime between 2009 & 2017 is the rapture/tribulation/return of Christ.

As with visiting any internet website, keep in mind there are going to be things we do not agree with, but I believe we can glean information from.

That being said, if you are familiar with any other websites that provide scriptural evidence of a coherent timeline, feel free to add them in the comments section.

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_64/6468000/6468655/1/print/6468655.pdf [Link]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrPrnzP-sZw [Link]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJpq7DN4R58 [Link]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6CTd0nHPBM [Link]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1bkB1nShSU [Link]

http://danielstimeline.com/home.htm [Link]

http://jewsandjoes.com/timeline-of-the-last-days-daniels-shmita-shavua-prophecy.html [Link]

http://s4ctroops.com/_wsn/page3.html [Link]

http://watcher.boardzero.com/the-watcher-forum-f3 [Link]

http://www.tribwatch.com/2016.htm [Link]

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/ProphecyTimeLines.html [Link]

http://www.thereturnofjesusmyking.com/ [Link]

http://www.diesel-ebooks.com/cgi-bin/item/0955767709/2016-A-Prophecy-eBook.html [Link]

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/ [Link]

http://www.aroodawakening.tv/ [Link]

http://biblesearchers.com/hebrews/jewish/messiahtheprincetemple8.shtml [Link]

http://www.thebiblicalworldview.org/ [Link]

http://daniels70weeksprophecy.com/Presentation.htm [Link]