Many of the readers of this blog believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
While I may agree with these brothers and sisters in Christ on 99% of all other doctrine, I cannot agree on a pre-trib view.
Those that have been following for any length of time are aware that I have spent literally thousands of hours pouring over every book, article, blog and commentary I can get my hands on that teaches ANY rapture view.
I wrote earlier about “Brother D” and his blog (It is a good site – I’m not condemning here) but I wanted to respond again today on one of his recent articles. Again, Brother D’s original comments are in Bold:
Psalm 32:6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.
7You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble;You surround me with songs of deliverance.
Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him? Luke 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Flood of great waters? As it was in the days of Noah? Flood will not reach him? Are you picking up on this?
You would have to be blind or willfully ignorant to not see how rich just these two sentences are in one Psalm in the bible. In a "flood" of great waters? They will not reach him? Hiding place? You preserve me from trouble? You surround me with songs of deliverance? Gosh, that sounds really "escapist" , doesn't it?
I would respond with a resounding YES! It does sound very “escapist”. And that is precisely what the Lord has promised. However, the “Harpazo” or “Rapture” is never mentioned here.
Just when is this “flood of great waters”?
Revelation 12:14-17 - And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The “Time, times, and half a time” is the 42 month reign of Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.
The woman is the church who goes into a place of hiding (protected and fed by God) during this time. The antichrist then makes war with those who “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”. These are CHRISTIANS.
They are here on the earth at this time. For whatever reason, they did not go to a place of protection and were in the middle of a war with antichrist.
Perhaps they chose to stay and fight, maybe they didn’t want to leave their homes and friends (remember Lot’s wife), but scripture tells us the end result for those that do not leave is that many are killed, and the antichrist is mostly triumphant over them.
If we are going to use Old Testament to teach on the rapture, why not go to the oldest book in the bible and see what Job had to say about it:
Job 14:12-15 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.
Job realized that once he died, his body would remain in the grave until the very end. He was appointed a set time where his body would come out of the grave and be changed! God would call, and Job would answer by coming out of the grave.
I Thessalonians 4:15-18 - For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Again, we can go to the old testament book of Joel:
Joel 2:16 - Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
This “Closet” refers to a place of hiding. When the Lord returns, the church then comes out of her place of protection and is gathered by Christ.
Yes, there is an escape, yes the Lord will protect His own. Everyone all throughout scripture that had troubles, trials and tribulations remained here protected by God through them.
Jesus Himself said:
John 17:15 - I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Not Able To Save Them
23 hours ago
8 responses to "In Response II:"
I totally agree with you about the pre-trib rapture theory. I live in whats called the "Bible belt" in the south and probably 98% of people believe this. When I try and talk to them about it its like talking to a brick wall and they get very defensive and angry. I just tell them I'm not trying to change their minds but I so believe that both teachings should be taught just in case they are wrong. I also ask them which theory will benefit satan if they are wrong? If post-tribbers are wrong then praise our LORD, we've been spared. But if they are wrong, who will benefit from people doubting or even giving up their faith and taking the"mark" not realizing thats what it is because in their minds they wouldn't be here. I believe this may be the great falling away. I also have a question, so many places in the scriptures it speaks of those who keep the commandments of GOD. Do you believe this means ALL of the commandments including the fourth? Just curious.
I'm in the so called "bible belt" as well. (NC)
As for the "commandments", I believe many try to limit that to the ten commandments given to Moses.
However, there are 613 commandments issued in the Old Testament. Which commandments does scripture refer to?
James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all."
Jesus said:
Matthew 5:17,18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
He stated plainly that he did not do away with the law, but fulfilled it. The law was types and shadows pointing to Christ.
He also said the law would NOT pass till all was fulfilled.
He goes on in verse 23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
Tithe, judgment, mercy and faith are not mentioned in the ten commandments, so he must be referring to the 613 laws (which include the ten).
But what is key here is that Christ says there are more important aspects to the law.
I believe if you read the entire chapter of Matthew 5, you will see that Christ "clarifies" the purpose of the law. It was to point to Him.
Galatians 6:2 says "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
Just like he told the pharisees, you've got to take care of one another, love your neighbor, this is what it's all about. Not following the letter of the law.
Romans 7:4,6 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
The law is not done away with, but we are dead to it's effects in Christ.
II Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
To follow the letter of the law leads to condemnation, but to follow Christ (the reason for the law to begin with) leads to life.
So in a nutshell, yes the law still applies, but not by letter. It is by the Spirit in which it was written that it applies to us today.
You mentioned specifically the fourth commandment.
Colossians 2:16,17 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
Mark 2:24,27 - And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
The Sabbath was made for man. It was made for man to have an opportunity for rest and worship. Man was not made for the Sabbath, meaning it is not a day of legalism we must follow.
II Corinthians 3:14 - But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
This is speaking of the veil that blinds those who hold to a legalistic view of scripture, and do not see that it points to Christ.
Then we can ask ourselves, WHICH Sabbath are we to keep? Is it the Seventh day Sabbath (Saturday)? The High Sabbath? The Sabbath week? The seven annual Sabbaths? The Shmita year long Sabbath?
Again, I will have to say that I believe we are to keep the laws. I believe the fourth commandment is just as important as any other. However, we must remember that we are to follow the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law.
Well it seems we are neighbors in the so called bible belt,(Tn). You are right,there are many laws but the way I have read it is that the ten commandments are GODS supreme law that He felt it important enough to write it on the stones with His own finger. This to me is major! The ceremonial laws that He told to Moses for the people are what I believe were to preview Yeshua Messiah. Also the high Sabbaths which are the 7 feasts ( I'm sure you remember from Daniel's timeline) were also representitive of Christ,He has fulfilled 4 of the 7. I think the ten commandments are non-negotiable, you either follow or you don't. Just as with the pre-trib theory most of my friends dismiss the original Sabbath by saying "we are not under the law anymore , we are under grace, its just all spiritual now". Ok....if that logic were true then its ok to steal and kill and commit adultery right? I usually get a blank stare. I truly believe the ten commandments stand alone as THE commandments He expects us to obey. Literally! Also considering the who and the why behind changing it is all the more reason to observe GOD's Sabbath, not a man-made day to accommodate the pagan sun worshippers. Furthermore, Yeshua said in Matthew 24:20, But pray ye that your flight not be in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. I'm guessing that He is expecting us to still be observing His Sabbath day, otherwise He would have said pray ye that your flight not be in the winter , neither any other generic day of the week. It kind of puts it in a different perspective doesn't it? But again , like the pre-trib rapture, people are set in their ways and they get very defensive and don't want to believe that what they have been taught their whole lives could be wrong.
I really do think that the woman is Israel (the remnant who will be saved after the trib)
MA - I do believe the woman could very well be Israel.
However, it still says that the antichrist makes war with her seed.
Who is the seed of Israel?
Galatians 3:29 - And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Would this not be Christians?
Abraham was promised to be a blessing to all nations. But Israel came from Abraham, so I still see that the church could also be from Abraham and yet not necessarily part of Israel.
I agree with you about the pre-trib rapture, even though that's what I was always taught. Especially in light of Job's testimony about the dead not rising again until the heavens are no more and how it fits with the heavens being rolled up like a scroll. If I am mistaken and Christ does come before for His church, I pray to be found in Him doing my Lord's will. And I will be most grateful to be found in that number. But I can't see where the Scriptures as a whole support the pre-trib theory.